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So over this past weekend i did a little summing experiment. I've been mixing with digital gear for years now. Out of my own curiosity i wanted to see if good ole analog summing ALONE could really improve my mix. I did 3 tests with.
1. AMS Neve DFC Digital console.
2. ITB.
3. OOB into a Analog summing matrix.
Some pre test info.
As i said i wanted to see if analog summing alone could help a mix. Not the analog EQ's, colored channels, or buss compressors. The benefit of those qualities is not in question. Just the summing.
For my test i rendered out 12 channels, 6 Stereo stems of a track i'm working on.
I made a ITB, DFC, & OOB mix.
The 2 digital mixes sounded identical. I was excited to hear the analog summed mix, but when i did i was really disappointed. I summed the channels through 2 oxmoor RMX-62's (12 channels total). It's a great little analog mixing matrix. When i A/B the 2 the stereo image was so narrow compared to the digital. This was a surprise.
Well atleast i have piece of mind once more. Unless you have some great colored gear you gain nothing from the summing alone. I'll keep my analog investments for the input stage.
1. AMS Neve DFC Digital console.
2. ITB.
3. OOB into a Analog summing matrix.
Some pre test info.
As i said i wanted to see if analog summing alone could help a mix. Not the analog EQ's, colored channels, or buss compressors. The benefit of those qualities is not in question. Just the summing.
For my test i rendered out 12 channels, 6 Stereo stems of a track i'm working on.
I made a ITB, DFC, & OOB mix.
The 2 digital mixes sounded identical. I was excited to hear the analog summed mix, but when i did i was really disappointed. I summed the channels through 2 oxmoor RMX-62's (12 channels total). It's a great little analog mixing matrix. When i A/B the 2 the stereo image was so narrow compared to the digital. This was a surprise.
Well atleast i have piece of mind once more. Unless you have some great colored gear you gain nothing from the summing alone. I'll keep my analog investments for the input stage.
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Re: Small Summing Shootout = Analog Disappointment.
Mon, August 4, 2008 - 8:54 AMFor a while I had considered getting a Roll Folcrom summing box. I also figured my money was better spent elsewhere. I guess if you can afford a rack full of goodies like 1176s, LA2As, Distressors, EQs, etc and a nice board like a Trident or a Toft ATB then summing out the box is worth it, but what I get out of my UAD-1s and the quality of ITB summing nowadays it just doesn't seem to justify it. I would rather spend the money on nice preamps and microphones and treating a room.
If you can post the clips I would love to hear them. Thanks for supporting my cognitive dissonance as well!
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Re: Small Summing Shootout = Analog Disappointment.
Mon, August 4, 2008 - 1:07 PMMy opinion has been for a while that analog summing mixers are not really the answer the problem. The problem is that many folks are unaware of very small amounts of latency created when instantiating plug-ins on DAWs, and if you're not keenly aware of that inherent issue, there can be all kinds of summing issues that still won't be fixed by using a summing mixer. Instead, dealing with the latency issues will typically fix the problem so dramatically that an analog summing mixer will be next to unnecessary. -
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Re: Small Summing Shootout = Analog Disappointment.
Mon, August 4, 2008 - 5:07 PMI am also fairly convinced that the mix engines have improved in the software and generally, people know how to do it better now than even 3 years ago....there are a few simple rules to follow and things seem to work out pretty well. Most of the bitching I have heard in regards to analog summing were from people who had years (decades) of experience in the analog realm: many of them have gone over to mixing in the box since.
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Re: Small Summing Shootout = Analog Disappointment.
Tue, August 5, 2008 - 3:12 PMWould you elaborate on the latency issue some, Jordy? I've heard bits and pieces here and there, but would love to get a overview of how to fix latency issues with plugins.
you can private message me if you want... or start another thread
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Re: Small Summing Shootout = Analog Disappointment.
Tue, August 5, 2008 - 3:57 PMI would like to hear it too, as I understood most software, the big exception being PT, has built in plugin latency compensation. I have never had an issue with this in Cubase/Nuendo, though I don't really mix OTB with these either. -
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Re: Small Summing Shootout = Analog Disappointment.
Tue, August 5, 2008 - 5:19 PMYes before PT 7 it didn't have PDC (plugin delay compensation). It now has 1/2 a$$ compensation up 4096 samples. That means if a plugin has a latency of 4096 or under it will compensate. Pretty much every other host has full PDC so it's not an issue.
It can be a pain to manually adjust tracks to be back in time. Back in the early days of DAW's and soso quality plugins people learned the hard way when it's caused mixing problems. So many choose to mix out of the box and use realtime hardware inserts and other known gear. But know the quality lines are blurred & latency is less & less of an issue. We are now stuck with the questions of workflow. I have chosen to get my analog color during input & mix ITB.
It's was simple decision for myself now that i have played & tested.
I have come up with 2 questions that i have based my decision on.
1. Will (X piece of gear) help my signal on input? Yes or no.
2. Will (X piece of gear) help my signal on output? Yes or no.
So for myself yes my outboard gear can improve my sound on input.
But can the noise from A/D D/A's & a transparent analog summing box help my mix? No.
I have my current answer.
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Re: Small Summing Shootout = Analog Disappointment.
Tue, August 5, 2008 - 7:10 PMI'll have to agree on the concentrating on the input thing. I bought an LA 610 and the Apogee Duet and the difference in my guitar and bass tracks is astounding.
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